Author Topic: Dealing with Funky Units  (Read 2567 times)

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Offline jasonc

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Dealing with Funky Units
« on: August 08, 2012, 02:01:55 AM »
Hey all,

So talking with various people online, and looking at what people are currently working on, there are a bunch of funky unit ideas (read trick ponies/deathstars/etc) that people are doing. Inevitably a number of these will crop up at early tournaments for 6th, and it might be helpful to get an idea on beating them. Also, not that these are 'good' per se, but is can be nice to have a good idea what you are doing before hand.

So what do you reckon?

I'll mention a few;

- Harlequin's + fortune/character. Unit has 2+/2+ cover, and a character that can absorb CC wounds on a 2++/2++ (Dark eldar IC + fortune) or 3+/3+ (farseer/bike), or 3++/3++ (eldrad). Unit has hit and run so can't be pinned, puts out 40+ attacks on the charge that are rending/can break vehicles, and still afford to multiassault.

- Tau suites with psyker powers, ie ignore cover + fortune etc.

- 10x TH/SS termies with hit and run

- Massive guard blobs with say alrahem for speed, and insert fav. allied IC here.

- Teleporting necron deathstar.

For the moment I'll probably be allying in Space wolves and making my armies pretty simple (guard + wolves, or the other way around, and tanking my way over the table). Wolves give psyker defense obviously to stop some of the gimmicks.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 02:14:54 AM by jasonc »

Offline Wyrmnax

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Re: Dealing with Funky Units
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2012, 04:05:40 AM »
Hey all,

So talking with various people online, and looking at what people are currently working on, there are a bunch of funky unit ideas (read trick ponies/deathstars/etc) that people are doing. Inevitably a number of these will crop up at early tournaments for 6th, and it might be helpful to get an idea on beating them. Also, not that these are 'good' per se, but is can be nice to have a good idea what you are doing before hand.

So what do you reckon?

I'll mention a few;


- Harlequin's + fortune/character. Unit has 2+/2+ cover, and a character that can absorb CC wounds on a 2++/2++ (Dark eldar IC + fortune) or 3+/3+ (farseer/bike), or 3++/3++ (eldrad). Unit has hit and run so can't be pinned, puts out 40+ attacks on the charge that are rending/can break vehicles, and still afford to multiassault.

Also, that character will get IDed by a S6 shot, and the unit as a whole is T3. Shoot it dead. Flamer it. Overwatch it as they arent likely to get cover saves when getting overwatched. 40+ S3 attacks is not really that scary, although being rending makes it dangerous. Also, the unit costs 22 points for each harlies with rending, ~100 for the fortune seer, + 100more if you attach a DE IC or Eldar instead. You are looking at 400 points spent in a single unit. It is a deathstar.

- Tau suites with psyker powers, ie ignore cover + fortune etc.

???

You mean, using psychic powers to augment Tau Suites?

I would be more worried about Tau actually having decent troops through allies. Tau suits are the best things on the book, and they are not that great. They can be shot back now by pratically everyone, and they are simply T4 models with 3+ save. JSJ used to keep them away from virtually any retaliation, with the new Rapid Fire rules they will be able to be retaliated with standard weaponry everyone has access to.

- 10x TH/SS termies with hit and run

500 points stuck in a unit. Deathstar. Feed it, isolate the rest of the army, then shoot it dead.

Hit and run still means that you might be able to charge them back if they disengage.

- Massive guard blobs with say alrahem for speed, and insert fav. allied IC here.

Massive guard blobs were a very nice tarpit before. They still are.

- Teleporting necron deathstar.

For the moment I'll probably be allying in Space wolves and making my armies pretty simple (guard + wolves, or the other way around, and tanking my way over the table). Wolves give psyker defense obviously to stop some of the gimmicks.

Example?


Most of your ideas get resumed in 'how to deal with a deathstar'. It is still the same basic principles - it is a huge part of the enemy army. Avoid it while you can, isolate the rest of the army and destroy it, and then shoot the deathstar to death.

Offline jasonc

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Re: Dealing with Funky Units
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2012, 04:30:36 AM »
Of course; though I'm sure there are other 'funky' units and combinations people have come up with. It just so happens that a simple example is a deathstar. Deathstars that are a lot faster and/or more durable (hit and run added, IC absorbing wounds etc) should be considered + countered IMO.

Re your replies;
- ID, doesn't work against a) farseer on a bike, b) eldrad, and is difficult to do vs 2++/2++ character.
- Flaming the unit doesn't help if their character can absorb hits, but it certainly does help if you can jump their flank etc.
- Counterassaulting such a unit seems to be the best way around it; hitting it from two sides where the character can only absorb wounds from one unit. Otherwise using a variety of Ini to stop characters absorbing wounds that hurt.
- Damage output of the unit is str 4, not str 3, and usually coupled with doom (ie when charging).

Agree re. suites/termies etc.

Guard blobs.. that are combat units over tarpit units? These can be scarily offensive when you think that they can be outfitted with str 4 power weapons, have a character in them to absorb wounds etc. When I ran this unit myself recently, I found I lost a good deal of the unit when my opponent drop pod' behind me and opened up with focus fire. He avoided the character and killed half the blob.

I agree that deathstars in general are best avoided, but the problem will be when the death star is much faster than before, and is hard to avoid. Multiassaulting might not be as good as before, but deathstars don't really care about the penalities, because being a death star any part of their unit can usually beat up on your unit.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 04:33:13 AM by jasonc »

Offline Wyrmnax

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Re: Dealing with Funky Units
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2012, 08:20:24 AM »
Deathstars

You still have plenty of ways of dealing with the deathstar though.
Block them with vehicles, feed them a weakened unit to avoid them assaulting a unit they would want to assault.

Yes, deathstars became faster. That does mean they became more useful. However, you were able to deal with Nob Bikers in 5th, and nothing became faster than that.

6th even gave you a nice way to deal with them built in - manuever to shoot your instakill weapons at something other than the character sporting 3++/multiple wounds. It gets even better, park a rhino in front of the character forcing the star to either charge the rhino or go around it, and shoot from a position you cannot hit the character, effectively taking that pesky 3++ save out of the game for the shooting phase. Easier said than done though.

About the eldar - the only really resilient model is the IC. The rest is T3, 5++ Harlies. Block sight to the IC and shoot them dead, or like you said, assault them from a angle that is different from the IC. It is a single IC in a unit, use some mobility to kill the rest of the unit. Or just template/blast the whole unit.

The characters that are T4 have 3++/3++. They are, wound by wound, a bit more resilient than terminators. Any wound that is not put into them is almost always killing a 22 point harlie. Any S8 wound that is put into them still instagibs. Rapid firing the unit will give you enough wounds to either seriously damage the harlies or put a few wounds on the character.

The character that can be 2++/2++ is T3. Much harder to get through the save, but much easier to wound in the first place. And remember that the DE 2++ stop working after failing the first time.

I did forget about S4 though, since my Eldar are shelved and collecting dust since the middle of 4th edition -_-".

Fortune + Doom means you spent even more points on the squad. Also, dooming a squad that is about to engage your deathstar is usually a very bad move, unless you are not certain your star can take it down in the first place. Much better to doom a secondary target that will be taken down by S6 spam.


Guard Blobs

40-50 guardsman, 4-5 power axes, commissar. Thats the blob you are talking about, right?

It is not a 'melee force to be feared'. It is a very nice tarpit. It will eventually kill stuff in melee through sheer number of attacks/having those S4 AP2 attacks in the middle. But it should not be considered a serious melee unit, just like vanilla marine squads shouldnt.  They can kill less capable units in melee, but anything that could be considered a good melee unit will bring them down with impunity.

I say that they are very good tarpits because they are - you can see a unit you dont want to deal with right now, throw the blob into it and let them slug it out for a couple rounds. They will loose some models, you will loose plenty, and after a couple rounds you suicide your commissar and flee the combat, leaving the weakened unit open to fire from your whole army. Thats how it used to work in 5th, i believe this is pretty much how it works in 6th, except that it might be a bit harder to actually protect that comissar until the right time.

However, a unit that wins combat through sheer number of attacks can make the blob fail just like it could in 5th.

Offline Rakaydos

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Re: Dealing with Funky Units
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2012, 12:19:01 AM »
What about mobile, shooty deathstars? The classic example being Farsight Bodyguard Squad with a Divination Farseer, throwing out S6AP2 and S7AP4 like it was twin linked. 7 flamers would make the squad difficult to assault for cheap, and a second commander running Vectored Retro Rockets lets the squad get back out of combat on a 5 or less so they can get back to shooting.