Author Topic: GK with SM Allies  (Read 3492 times)

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Offline MadmanMSU

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GK with SM Allies
« on: September 24, 2012, 03:17:51 AM »
I have a new Grey Knights army that I'm going to try out as soon as I can. I would be curious to hear some feedback. I'm wary of using Mordrak, but here is the list I was going to try out.

Mordrak
4 Knights, 3 with swords, 1 with Hammer

Vindicare

Dreadknight w/ Teleporter and Greatsword

Psyfledread

5x GKSS, 1 Psycannon

5x GKSS, 1 Psycannon

Lysander
8x Sternguard
Drop Pod

Scout Squad w/ Telion
Aegis Line
Icarus Lascannon

Vindicator


Mordrak, DK, Sternguard, and Vindicare are the Alpha Strike.

The two GKSS either sit behind the Aegis, or Deep Strike where they are needed, depending on the opposing army. If I use them to claim backfield objectives, they can use Warp Quake to deter deep strikes. Otherwise I can move them up and use Grand Strategy to have the Psyfledread claim backfield. Or I can make the DK scoring. Or the Vindicare.  Or the Sternguard.  Lots of options.

Scouts sit behind Aegis, Telion mans the lascannon. This gives me two units (Vindicare and Telion) that can do some serious damage to vehicles, and they both get to allocate wounds. Telion is effectively sniping with a lascannon. And it has skyfire!

I get that Mordrak is squishy, in a way, but that's why he has 3 Knights in front of him with 4++. The way I see it, Mordrak isn't designed to go head to head with Termies. Use him like you would Dante...place him near a squishy or undefended point.


****************************

I was able to get one game in this past weekend with this list.

It went well. Game was Capture the Relic and I won the deployment roll. 1st turn, shunt DK up and grab relic. Was pretty much over from that point on.

Telion on the Lascannon was a champ. I played vs. vanilla marines, and Telion alone took out a flyer, an Ironclad, and a few others. Definitely worth it.

I'm not so sure about the Vindicare or the Dreadknight. Lysander and the Vindicare pair very well...Lysander can bolster a ruins, so the Vindicare can sit in midfield with a 2+ cover save. Problem is that he can't move, since his weapon is Heavy, which *shouldn't* be a problem, but with the chaoticness that is battle, sometimes you find that he is out of position and loses a turn of firing due to movement. This game he was able to take out a rhino and some special multi-melta equipped tacticals, but other than that wasn't too amazing.

The DK didn't really see any action, since he had the Relic. In theory, this guy should be a beast, but his points cost is sooooo high....I wonder if it's worth taking if you don't do it in pairs. Will have to try him out in more games to see.



Offline MadmanMSU

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Re: GK with SM Allies
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2012, 01:31:40 PM »
Got another game in today against vanilla marines, 1850.  Rolled Big Guns Never Tire with corners for deployment.

Game went well.  He brought a ton of terminators, but I was able to table him by turn 5.  The sternguard with Lysander work really, really well.  And even though the Dreadknight is a huge point sink, he definitely earns those points. 

The one part of this list that I'm not so crazy about so far is the Vindicare.  I've had some games where he is clutch and really comes through, and I've had others where he fails to do anything.  Problem is, I'm not sure what to replace him with.  I could take a second Psyfledread, or I could beef up my GKSS, or maybe a purgation squad?

I could free up more points if I drop Lysander for Pedro...but the problem is that Bolter Drill really pumps those sternguard up a lot, and it's nice to have a Beatstick deterrent in the sternguard squad.

Anyone have suggestions?

Offline MadmanMSU

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Re: GK with SM Allies
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 02:42:10 AM »
Played two more games this past Sunday....one against SoB w/ SM, the other against Dark Eldar.  Really cemented my belief that the Vindicare just doesn't fit.  Made the following changes.

Mordrak
3 Knights, 3 with Halberds

Dreadknight w/ Heavy Psycannon

Psyfledread

Psyfledread

10x GKSS, 2 Psycannon

5x GKSS, 1 Psycannon

Lysander
8x Sternguard
Drop Pod

Scout Squad w/ Telion
Aegis Line
Icarus Lascannon

Vindicator

Dreadknight is going to Deepstrike in.  I toyed with the idea of putting a locator beacon on the Drop Pod, but it's debatable whether or not you can use an "enemy" locator beacon, even if those "enemies" are in your own army.  On the plus side, using Mordrak's Psychic Communion will be handy to ensure a turn 2 reserve roll.

Offline Wyrmnax

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Re: GK with SM Allies
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 04:14:32 AM »
Few questions:

1) Do you have enough scoring? I count 15 marines and 5 scouts, and that seems awfully low for 6th edition. That sound awfully low for 5th edition, by the way, and 5th needed less scoring than 6th.

2) Why even bring SM as allies? Lysander and Sternguard? Thats 400 points... you could bring in a full terminator squad for that much. Wouldnt it be more effective than your combination? Also, SM scouts are considered sub-par as they are just too costly forwhat they bring, and Telion is terrible for its cost.

3) Do you even have any sort of anti-tank in the army? 2 psyfledreads, 3 psycannons. That is not enough to deal with a force that brings anything more than a couple vehicles.

4) Onto vehicles, you have 2. I doubt your psyflemans live through the match simply because the enemy has no other targets to point his anti-tank at. You need to either bring a lot more of AV so the enemy has to divide his attention between them all, or dont bring any and force him to shoot his anti-tank weapons at infantary.

Offline MadmanMSU

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Re: GK with SM Allies
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2012, 03:02:21 AM »
Some good points.

1)  Grand Strategy works well to make units scoring.  At the very least, either the DK or the Sternguard will be scoring, usually both.  I've never had an issue with needing another scoring unit so far.  Scouts sit in the back, GKSS deep strike into mid, Sternguard/DK go deep.

2)  Basically....I just like Sternguard.  I started using them in my Blood Angels army, just to see what they could do out of a drop pod with a Divination libby....holy crap do they work well.  I will eventually have a Pedro army at some point, but for now I'm experimenting with vanilla marine allies to see how it goes.  And so far, sternguard have been champs.  They are such a hugely versatile unit, with the drop pod assault you have the opportunity to apply the right pressure to the weakest spot in the enemy army.  Guard in cover?  Use dragon fire rounds.  Marines behind an Aegis?  Drop on the other side and use hellfire.  Monstrous creature?  Poison rounds.  Vehicles?  Give em combi-meltas.

Lysander, while expensive, gives them a beatstick as well as Bolter Drill, increasing their threat factor.

Scouts are cheap, and fulfill the "allies tax", so to speak.  Telion sits on the Icarus Lascannon, giving it 2+/6+ to hit as well as the ability to assign wounds however he wants.  Flyer coming in from reserve?  Skyfire it.  Pesky multimelta guy buried deep in a tactical squad?  Use the lascannon to snipe him out from 72 inches away.  Plus with the Aegis, they're in cover for a natural 3+, 2+ if you go to ground.  Honestly, the scout squad are just ablative wounds for Telion.  Telion tends to generate a lot of hate for sniping with the lascannon.

3)  This is a legit concern, and something I wrestle with.  I have 1 Icarus Lascannon, 2 Psyfledreads, 3 Psycannons, and the Vindicator to handle vehicles (plus Mordrak and the DK and Lysander if they get close enough), which sometimes isn't enough.  With the general meta-shift in 6th, it hasn't been a problem so far, but I do run into the occasional bad matchup (Dark Eldar!).  Suggestions are welcome.

4)  Actually, I have 5.  2 Psyfledreads, the Vindicator, the DK, and Mordrak.  I count the DK and Mordrak because they typically draw the anti-tank gunfire as well.  It's rare that I run into someone who spends all their bolter fire shooting at Mordrak.....he just laughs, rolls a bunch of 2s, and assaults the next turn.  Whats more typical is that the first turn they have to choose between shooting at Mordrak, the DK, the 2 Psyfledreads (behind the Aegis with 4+ cover), and the Vindi (also behind an Aegis to start) that is pushing up.

« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 03:04:54 AM by MadmanMSU »

Offline Majinmonkey

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Re: GK with SM Allies
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2012, 08:16:55 AM »
I also just love stern guard. The versatility of even just bolters for then means I'll always be happy shooting at my target, and 5 point combiweapons is almost too good to pass up.

I must applaud you for telion sniping, I hadn't thought of that, but i'm always trying to fit that fluffy dog into my lists that include scouts.

As for anti tank, perhaps cutting a single stern guard for 5 combo weapons might work. Lysander helps create a more sustained threat with them, but they certainly can death star alpha strike in a drop pod. You could go all 5 combi plasma for the ultimate utility, or go melta to fill that gap in your army.

Looks very fun though, I am in the slow process of making am Eldar army and want to use the avatar in a way similar to your DK, big scary guy that draws fire and punches shit to death. I'm really beginning to think monsters have a kind of psychological threat thing going on where visible pressure may shift their attention from more subtle advantages.

Offline MadmanMSU

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Re: GK with SM Allies
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2012, 03:08:27 AM »
I'm going to take your suggestion and drop one sternguard for 5 combi's.  I'm thinking  either 4 plas and one melta or just 5 melta.  Haven't decided.

Looks very fun though, I am in the slow process of making am Eldar army and want to use the avatar in a way similar to your DK, big scary guy that draws fire and punches shit to death. I'm really beginning to think monsters have a kind of psychological threat thing going on where visible pressure may shift their attention from more subtle advantages.

I agree about the monstrous creatures.  Often I can visibly see the deception working on my opponent's face....

Me: ...and I have a DK that is deepstriking, with Lysander and Sternguard in a drop pod.
Opponent: What is the toughness on that DK?
Me: 6.  With a 2+/5+ armor save.
Opponent: And what are those sternguard equipped with?
Me: Oh, just bolters.
Opponent shoots fanatically at DK.  I laugh and slaughter him with sternguard.

I jest =)

The DK draws a lot of heat, but of course the issue is that he is hard to get into position.  You can buy him a teleporter, but wow does he get expensive.  I've tried that in a few games and it went well, but I'm going to try this deepstrike thing with the heavy Psycannon and see how that goes.  By deepstriking instead of starting on the table and shunting turn 1, I lose some of the "alpha strike", so I think I will have to play more conservatively as a result.  Mordrak will solely focus on flanking a weakside (hence halberds instead of hammers/swords) and Sternguard will deploy closer to midfield instead of in the enemies face. 

Edit:  I'm also considering just dropping Telion + Aegis, which would free up 135 points, and using scouts purely as a backfield scoring unit.  We'll see.  Telion is very fun to use and the Aegis really helps the Psyfledreads out.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 03:16:34 AM by MadmanMSU »

Offline MadmanMSU

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Re: GK with SM Allies
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2012, 03:35:51 AM »
Got a few more games in this weekend with some variations on this list.

1st game was a 4000 pt game, me and a another guy brought 2000 pts each against 4000 pts of chaos/daemons.  That was a fun game, although we lost by 2 Victory points.  Nurgle are ridiculous!  And Heldrakes are OP.  Seriously.

2nd game was against guard.  I seized the initiative, which basically won me the game, even after I had a terrible first turn of shooting.  After I killed his command squad (Creed and Kell and some others), I forced an entire platoon to run off the board with Lysander and some Sternguard.  Too funny. 

3rd game was against the same guy, but he used Sisters with Grey Knights.  Tabled him on turn 4.  This was partly due to his incredibly poor placement of his terminators.  He used them to hold an objective in a corner of his deployment zone (4 objís, 2 on each side), so I just ignore d them the whole game.  Not smart on his part.  He did blow my psyfledread off the board on turn 1, which was disheartening, but I came back with a vengeance.  I also used a weird variation on my list for the giggles.

What did I learn:

Game 1:

-Heldrakes are OP.

-People hate Telion.  I mean, yes, I understand why a lascannon shooting at BS6 can be a threat, but he honestly didnít do much at all this game.  I managed to roll less than 4 on every penetration roll I made against the Heldrakes, yet he still got all the heat from the baleflamers.  The one good thing he did was blow up the enemy Maulerfiend on turn 1 (whichever one it is that has the 2 ectoplasm guns on it.  Those are bad for my troopsí health.).

-Karamazov is not my style.  I used him as my HQ this game.  He managed to hit everything I was *not* aiming at.  He was amusing to try for one game, but I actually had to aim away from the thing I wanted to hit and hope for the right scatter to finally destroy what I wanted.  Lame.

-T5 and FNP is *rough*.  Especially after they get powered up by Epidemius or whatever his name is.  Then he had T5 with 3+ FNP.  Was downhill from there.  I have a new respect for Plague Marines.

Game 2:

-Due to poor placement on my part, both Telion AND my Psyfledreads were useless all game.  He did bring two vendettas against me, but they still failed to do anything but glance.  Useless!

-My Vindicator drew a lot of hate, but didnít really do much.  Vindiís really are one of those ďhit or missĒ units.  Even with an accurate template placement, anything behind an Aegis still gets a 4+ cover save.  Vindi did basically nothing, but at least died like a champ.

-My saving grace was Mordrak and Lysander.  The one/two alpha strike punch was lethal this game.  Lysander and his merry band of combi-meltas dropped behind the enemy parking lot and went to work.  Afterwards, they went to town assaulting some guard platoons, proving that they really are veterans with 2 base attacks each.  Mordrak and his Halberd crew pincher moved the other half of the guard unit behind the Aegis.  Game over.

Game 3:

-I was sensing the shift in the force, so I modified my list on the fly.  I dropped a Psyfledread and the Vindicator and picked up a Stormraven.  I also put my Dreadknight back into play after some points massaging.

-Was against Sisters and Grey Knights.  He poorly placed his terminators to start, which promptly got ignored all game.  He did get first turn and explode my Psyfledread, but I retaliated on my turn by combi-meltaing his Landraider, then using the dreadknight to flame everything inside (he had an Inquisitor crew in there).  Was pretty much over after that.

Overall:

-Iím getting less and less impressed with my Psyfledreads every game.  I still think they have their place, but Iím definitely dropping down to one instead of two.

-Iím also less thrilled with my vindicator.  I think Iím going to drop him for awhile and see how I do without it.

New List:

So, Iíve been toying with this new list.

Mordrak
-4x Ghost Knights w/ Halberds

5x GKSS w/ Psycannon

5x GKSS w/ Psycannon

Stormraven
-Hurricane Bolters, Multi-Melta, Assault Cannon

Dreadknight
-Teleporter
-Greatsword
-Heavy Incinerator

Psyfledread

7x Sternguard w/ 4 Combi-Meltas
Lysander
Drop Pod

Scouts w/ Telion
Aegis Defense Line
Icarus Lascannon

This is 1850 points.  Clearly, Iím spending too many points on the Dreadknight and the Stormraven, but itís a work in progress.  Ideally, Iíd like to have a 5 man unit of purifiers on the Stormraven, butÖweíll see.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 04:46:02 AM by MadmanMSU »